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What's wrong with the creator's of Fabrik

Discussion in 'Community' started by murugappan, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    I notice that most of the links are either broken, dont exists or incomplete. Even the help is outdated and many cases. Its so sad that a powerful tool for Joomla is left to rot.

    Is there anyone really maintaining the software?
     
  2. troester

    troester Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Level: Community
    See GitHub for recent updates (the last one is 4 days ago).

    I can't see any recent question from you in the forum.

    Any forum posts/answers are up to date at time of writing. So if you are looking on old ones they are related to the Joomla and Fabrik version at their creation time.

    Same with WIKI which is community work. So please report broken links (or better contribute to this free software and correct them).

    For paid help see https://fabrikar.com/help-center or contact @mediaateam
     
  3. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    I am learning Fabrik. I tried to get some tutorials on the software. See Screencap1 (click the link) and you get Screencap 2 (404 Ooops tutorial). May be you need to take a look of these.

    How can you see a recent post or contribution from me when the answers i get from links are similar to this one and i am struggling to get one good comprehensive tutorial? I even tried Lynda.com. Udemy and SkillShare but got nowhere.

    Anyway, thank you for your reply.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. startpoint

    startpoint Active Member

    Level: Community
  5. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    Hi Startpoint,

    I have got all of them. I am trying out Scriptcase and Appgini. All scary part is the learning curve. Anyway, thank for the lead.
     
  6. startpoint

    startpoint Active Member

    Level: Community
    I also tried appgini, but I think Fabrik has more power if you want to build something different from the standard - a different look, an expansion of functionality, or an extra one. Joomla capabilities are an added bonus.
    With Fabrik you have more control and endless possibilities.
    It all depends on your abilities and creativity.
    I have been using Fabrik every day for over 5 years now and every day I am learning something new.
     
    ontarget and dimoss like this.
  7. lousyfool

    lousyfool Active Member

    Level: Community
    If you're new to building a web app, there's basically nothing without a learning curve. It certainly depends on what you want to do (means what the result is supposed to be), but the less you know about Joomla, HTML, CSS, SQL, PHP, JS and web servers, the steeper and/or that curve will be.

    Starting with Fabrik, for me the Wiki and "trial & error" did it. Since Fabrik isn't built for just one particular purpose but hugely flexible, neither does it do anything out of the box, nor could there be one or five (video) tutorials telling the whole story, and sure not within a few minutes or so.

    So, @murugappan, to get your mood back to "positive" and since we're in the same timezone (me = Singapore), what if we had a brief chat to give you a clue in the infamous nutshell?
     
  8. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    Hi Startpoint,

    Thank you for the reply. I agree that Appgini is some sort less functional. I am not sure you can say the same for Scriptcase. The only problem is the cost (its not free). Rightly said, Joomla is an added bonus. The trouble i am facing now with Fabrik is that it behaves odd with third-party Joomla templates this makes me feel that the likes of Scriptcase and Appgini may be better solutions. In today's business environment, haggling with technology will not make money. I am sure you agree that Technology is a tool. If a tool is so messy to use then it is no longer a tool and will be a hindrance to productivity. In my opinion, if it is true that it takes 5 years to learn and become fluent with a tool then it needs serious reconsideration. Businesses cannot wait that long. I never believe Fabrik is such a tool but when you get "Ooops" screen so frequently, it is really depressing.

    Hi Lousyfool (i feel odd calling you that)

    Thank you for your reply. I am not new to the Web. I grew with the early stages of NetScape, Cobol, Assemblers and 1st few PCs landing in Malaysia. I had about 10 year break away from hardcore techie work as i was doing technology infra, architectures, business reengineering etc. Now i am back to techie life again (hehehe..). I am adequately versed with Joomla (10 years now), HTML, CSS, SQL (all sorts), PHP and JS. Rightly said and I agree, Fabrik may not be the right solution for people beginning life in these areas. I have a pool of young developers and i need to develop their skills in delivering solution and not haggling with technology. Wrestling with technology may soon be a thing of the past, delivering solution quickly is not. I am sure Fabrik is a good tool but the lack of good tutorial and comprehensive examples is total minus point against it. See the likes in PHP, Joomla, Joomshaper, Scriptcase (fantastic) and you will see what i mean. We need people who can deliver not code (hehehe...)

    I will take you up on the chat. Thank you.

    This is a reply i gave to well-known member called Sophist:
    ----------Quote--------------------------------------------
    Hi Sophist,

    Thank you so much for the reference. We are small start-up team and are also looking for projects from bigger technology clients. We are working under the philosophy that technology should be a tool to help us deliver quickly not incur more costs which could be detrimental to our existence. I understand the needs stated above. In short and also from other forum members, it is becoming clear to me that Fabrik may not be the right tool for people like us. We have delivered a total solution for a medical claims processing company with only 10% code and with lots of tools that make things easier for us and for the client. We cannot afford to code at each step of a problem - too long and depressing.

    So, thank you for the offer.
    -----------------UnQuote -----------------------------------
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  9. startpoint

    startpoint Active Member

    Level: Community
    Everyone has the right to use whatever he wants.
    Just to mention that for my 5 years of experience working with Fabrik, I started alone from absolute zero with only knowledge of html and css - ie. with templates modifications. Over time, thanks to the Fabrik, I already have knowledge of database management, experience in working with PHP, MySQL, JS, jQuery.
    I have implemented small and large complex projects.
    I help through the forum as much as I can.
    As much as the shortcomings of a Fabrik, so far from my tests with similar products that you mentioned before, I have not found a tool that gives so much freedom to write custom php, js code in my projects.
    Sure, Fabrik can be even faster and easier, but of course you need a serious team and investment behind the project.
    That, of course, would make him paid.
    But getting paid is not so much a problem but the team behind the project and its concept of development.
     
    Debi likes this.
  10. dimoss

    dimoss Well-Known Member

    Level: Community
    I fully agree with @startpoint
    I started years ago making simple apps and with continuous work, forum search and help from the experts like @cheesegrits, @troester and others I have built complicated apps.
    So I would say it's what you want, what your starting level is and how much time you want to spend on it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
    Debi likes this.
  11. MeAppBuilder

    MeAppBuilder Member

    Level: Community
    I have tested Scriptcase, Wappler and some other RAD (Rapid Application Development).
    Fabrik is really powerful and will make full use of Joomla CMS.
     
  12. skyrun

    skyrun Active Member

    Level: Community
    i agree with you about the broken links an no easy path for newbies to fabrik.

    i've been using fabrik for 10+ years now, and i would just say 'stick with it', it's 110% worth it... also would say a strong development background in php and js (and some joomla) will help. if someone doesn't have that, fabrik isn't the tool for them.

    i would also say the 'important' things are very much alive and well... like frequent code updates from @cheezegrits and support on a very active forum and support for new versions of joomla and security patches and things like that. so my best advice is:
    1. use the forum for the best support. although i peronally find it difficult to find things on the forum s/w fabrik uses. searching is easy, finding... not so much. but putting in a question usually gets a quick response. (quicker if you read #3 below)
    2. just dig in and try things! that's the best way to learn a new tool and pretty much the only option available with fabrik past the initial/basic tutorials.
    3. SUPPORT FABRIK. when your comfortable of it's value, buy a professional subscription which doesn't cost much to help support fabrik.
    4. consider investing some time supporting the community by creating better tutorials and updating the wiki. i think we all could do better on this one (i know i could).
    UPDATE: SORRY... i didn't realize that #3 is no longer an option :-( this thread was pointed out to me... and this thread DOES call into question the long-term for fabrik.

    imo,it's NOT too late to save fabrik... it's still alive (if not well)... see my post added to the thread above. Are people willing to pay for fabrik and save it? i'm in... are YOU?

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  13. cheesegrits

    cheesegrits Support Gopher Staff Member

    Level: Community
    We're alive and well, we just pulled back from providing support as our way of paying the bills.

    For ten years, we paid our bills through support subs, but that simply died as a revenue stream. As Joomla lost market share, and people became less and less inclined to take out subs, and the "low hanging" support fruit got fixed (such that the support issues we were getting got more and more complex, so a problem might take 2 days to track down and fix, which isn't viable on a fixed sub model) ... in the first year we did subs, we averaged about $5k/month ... by the last year we did support subs, we were averaging less than $1000/month. Which isn't enough to support even one full time developer.

    So we now pay our bills by using Fabrik to develop apps directly for clients, and with direct support contracts with agencies who want to use Fabrik to do their client work.

    We still maintain the forums, as a way for people to provide community support, and we still answer what questions we can, and fix any bugs that really need fixing that people report.

    I know this isn't ideal for a lot of you, but it's the reality. We simply couldn't continue with the support sub model, making our living primarily as enablers for other people to develop with Fabrik. We now make our living using Fabrik to develop apps directly.

    -- hugh
     
  14. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    Hi cheesegrits (hugh)
    Thank you for the update and explanation on the status of Fabrik. My feedback for you and all members.


    (1) Joomla may have lost market share but it has not lost it premium and focused users. I think the same can be applied for Drupal and Wordpresss. It is just that users-developers have split and moved to different camps based on their level of competency. In reality, there are only 3 CMS that are truly free and constantly managed/maintained with the flow of technology advancements. I am sure you already know, Drupal is a CMS very much focused on high techie users, Wordpress on the the other hand is for business users. This is where Joomla comes in. It is a solution for both ends of the spectrum. The most disappointing thing is with some template/builder developers like Joomshaper and Themexperts. They are good, there are no doubts about it, but have absolutely no clue about keeping the compliance with Joomla's underlying framework and strategies. So much so, their templates tend to screw up when integrating with other extension developers.

    (2) Fabrik is the only component that i know works well and integrated with Joomla. I know, though i have challenged it, that Fabrik is fanastic when it comes to the high techie level but fails and comes short when it comes to novice who was want to generate applications. The main reason, the support forum appears to be focused on (or handles) more complex techie based issues and solutions. Its documentation is extensive but, at the same time incomplete. This has created a huge gap between functionality/capabilities of Fabrik and its usability. In nearly all cases, i found that when i hit a snag of wanting to know the "how-to" i found no help in the documentation and resources found in the forum really sound greek. The forum contains lots of stuff but incomprehensive unless i am an advanced developer who know all the magic in every aspect of coding.

    (3) In its current state, Fabrik will be a private-use tool for developer like you but will pose great business risk as the business user will not be able to take over and run with the development. That is the main reason Fabrik is dying and will die eventually. The developers of Fabrik have completely failed to see things from the business user-developers perspective. Change this attitude. Business users may get the wanting to work with Fabrik only to realise it has no solution. I realise that the Intellectual Properties of the business itself is very often forgotten.

    In my opinion, Fabrik has great potentials but the developers of Fabrik may have gone into a depression due to financial issues (as you have said and I understand). It is very surprising that developers of Joomshaper (from Bangladesh) seem to do so well but a developers of a better product like Fabrik seem to withdraw in defeat.

    Sad indeed!
     
  15. teoyh

    teoyh Member

    Level: Community
    Its so sad , I had been using Fabrik since 2005.... its the best tool I ever find
     
  16. ontarget

    ontarget Active Member

    Level: Community
    I agree with many of the posts I am worried about certain essential plugins / integrations and api's becoming deprecated. I would happily contribute financially to e.g non core stuff that needs to be updated or developed e.g why not set a target fee for e.g the update of a plugin and let users who need it pledge a contribution towards it, when the target fee is reached fabrik can upgrade it - just an idea...
     
  17. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    Ontarget, Teo,

    Its sad also that the developers/owners of such a powerful product have become losers. Oh Well, too bad. They could have gone for crowd-funding but unfortunately, like i said, they dont seem to have strategic focus. Sad.. sad..
     
  18. ontarget

    ontarget Active Member

    Level: Community
    That’s a totally unfair comment. I think they have developed a fantastic product that we can use freely and I have found their support and expertise invaluable over the years. Your wrong to launch a personal attack and accusation like that in a public forum.
     
  19. murugappan

    murugappan Lexman

    Level: Community
    Its nothing personal. Please see the difference. Its a review and feedback. Its also an urge for them to come back. I have suggested they should go for crowd funding. Additionally, they should have an open-door policy for contributors. It is a fantastic product, that i agree but it is still remaining so techie. May be you should see the way Reportico is being handled. Its a one-man show but Reed develops and delivers a fantastic product. One thing is definite for sure: they do not have strategic focus.

    They forgot that this is the only product that is available for Joomla. The reason they are not getting enough financial backing is that there are so many products out there which do the same thing, if not better. Only problem with those is that they live outside of Joomla. See Appgini and Scriptcase. I can even get many for as cheap as US 35 in codecanyon. This product comes well supported by Joomla and could be a great winner. All it needs is full documentation on the elements and components and very good examples supported by video tutorials. I posted one problem in the forum and till today no solution seems to be available. All i was trying to do is to show one list under the detail view/form of another. There is no documentation that shows an actual working example. This is a very basic and common requirement.

    Anyway, it is does not matter what you or I say. The future of this product may not be going anywhere, that is my only concern.
     
  20. lousyfool

    lousyfool Active Member

    Level: Community
    Once again, and as opposed to the number of other products mentioned here, Fabrik is an app builder, "empty" out of the box, but then capable of handling many more applications than everything else mentioned here, and most everything else out there on the shelves. That is, if one puts in time and effort to wrap his/her head around it. Including, in most cases, being able or willing to deal with code.

    Naturally, this makes the Fabrik user base small to start with. Of course -- no surprise there -- the majority of these users wants it all free, complete with A1 documentation and ready-to-use setups and code for their specific use cases. Only few are willing to pay a fair amount for tedious custom work, or contribute to the Fabrik ecosystem in other valuable ways. No doubt, actually very obviously if you read and trust Hugh's and Robbie's many detailed explanations on this here across the forum, the previous subscription-based support system has been "abused" by too many of the few who paid that handful of dollars with them then milking the devs for unproportional amounts of hours on custom code for their particular apps.

    So, now -- while bugfixes and quick-and-easy feature add-ons continue to happen (!!!) -- the devs have set, and are open about, their new strategy: bigger things happen if someone pays fair money for it, either their direct clients, or one or a group of us here. In the meantime, Fabrik continues to work just fine and just as before, and devs plus a handful of volunteers are providing free support here. Sometimes even with custom code, though -- let's be honest -- that should not happen because good work deserves fair pay.

    What the heck is wrong about this? Right, nothing. Except one keeps insisting on others working free of charge for them, eventually to then sell it on to their clients for a premium.



    @murugappan, you've documented here that you're like most everyone else out there: you demand top product, top documentation and support, free of charge or, at best, dirt-cheap, and ready to be used in your projects which, after a minimum of effort on your side, you're charging your clients good dollars for.

    Only, you successfully differentiated yourself by making it way below the belt line, successfully also disqualifying yourself: definitely by calling the devs "losers" but, at least for me, also by keeping to patronize them on "strategy", by continuously comparing apples and oranges, and by your other accusations and "predictions" -- too much for me to quote here, and too wrong to make anyone reading it again.

    No one forces you to use Fabrik.
    If you do use it -- without fair payment or other forms of worthwhile contribution -- then take and use it as is, including the devs strategy and everything else included. You have then neither reason nor right for demanding else or even more. And definitely no name-calling, accusations/patronizing/irrelevant comparisons.
    Or go and negotiate, then pay, fair money for whatever else you want or need: https://fabrikar.com/quote-request

    Needless to say: if neither is appealing to you, well, guess I won't be missing you here.

    Of course, I can only speak for myself. So...
    - ...enough said -- by others, too -- so, I will not discuss this any further with you,
    - ...hence, I also take back my offer for a one-on-one chat with you,
    - ...and, finally, I trust you don't expect any free-of-charge support here at all for your formerly good self anymore,
    - ...unless you get your attitude, argumentation and expectations straight, post a proper, decent apology, and act and write decently from then on. You bet, the door is back open then.

    [EDIT:] Just few typos and grammar -- nothing added or deleted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020

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